Announcer: 0:00

You're about to tap into the digital marketing strategies that separate thriving law firms from the ones struggling to keep up. Join James Campbell as we break down the roadblocks holding your practice back and reveal the insider tactics attorneys are using to scale past seven figures. From cutting-edge digital marketing tips to exclusive interviews with industry leaders, we're giving you the playbook to attract higher quality clients, dominate your market and build a firm that runs like a growth machine. Your next breakthrough starts now. This is the Marketing Lawcast.

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Today's guest is someone whose name is synonymous with leadership, transformation and the kind of deep operational excellence that actually changes lives, not just practices. That actually changes lives, not just practices. Valerie Peterson is the CEO of Atticus, one of the most respected coaching organizations in the legal industry. But that title only scratches the surface of her career. Valerie is a licensed attorney, a dynamic national speaker and a seasoned executive who has led not just one but two major organizations in the estate planning and elder law space. Before taking the helm at Atticus, valerie served as CEO of Elder Counsel, helping thousands of attorneys systematize their practices and elevate their impact. Today, at Atticus, she continues that mission coaching lawyers to build great practices while also building great lives.

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In this conversation, you'll hear Valerie's powerful perspective on the three essential pillars every law firm needs to master the biggest operational mistakes law firms make and how to fix them, and why great marketing and great systems must work together to drive sustainable growth. We also explore leadership habits, burnout recovery and real-world client transformations that prove what's possible when attorneys get the right support. Whether you're running a growing firm or you're stuck at a plateau, this episode will challenge you, inspire you and give you actionable ideas to move forward. So, without further ado, let's dive into this incredible conversation with Valerie Peterson.

James Campbell: 2:10

Valerie, thank you so much for being on the Marketing Lawcast. Thank you, James. It's an honor to be here. You've had such a fascinating career from law firm owner, national speaker, CEO of two national organizations. What's sort of the thread that tied all of those roles together for you?

Valerie Peterson: 2:30

My goodness, really working with lawyers and supporting lawyers. From the time I can remember as a kid, I wanted to be a lawyer. That's what I always wanted to be and had a wonderful experience practicing law. And the only reason I had the opportunity with Elder Council was because I was in Miami running my practice, engaged to somebody in Oregon, and so I knew I was going to have to make a change. An opportunity with Elder Council arose. Elder Law was my passion and I got to step into learning what it's like to run a national business, which was, you know, really incredible.

James Campbell: 3:15

Yeah, very good. And as you sort of made that transition into Atticus, what was your vision for that company and the attorneys you serve, and in what way has that vision sort of come to life?

Valerie Peterson: 3:30

So I had the privilege of working with Atticus when I was at Elder Council. Atticus would come in and provide practice development, support, you know, with our members. But I kept hearing about having a great life as well and I didn't know any other company supporting lawyers that was really leaning into the great life part of practicing law. We all know lawyers who are burned out, stressed out, truly not having a great life even if they're making a lot of money. So for me, coming into Atticus, I wanted to bring Atticus out of the shadows.

Valerie Peterson: 4:09

You know you never want to be a secret. I wanted to bring really that great life piece to the forefront for lawyers because it's something that we as a company are incredibly passionate about and there's just not a lot of companies like ours who are saying you can have both, you should have both. You shouldn't sacrifice a great life just as you're building your practice. We see too much burnout, too many, you know, marriages that aren't working or partnerships that aren't working because somebody's focused solely on their business and not the rest of their life, missing things with children, you know, to activities yeah, I think that's um, I think that's one of the big things that we see as a marketing agency.

James Campbell: 5:00

We see with our clients that it's not just about getting all these, this new business, and sometimes that makes things worse when you don't have the systems in place and it builds up over time and I've seen the repercussions of that. So it's good to hear that someone else is saying, hey, this is something that you can have it all, but you have to be intentional about how you go after that. So for the attorneys that are listening today, we mentioned in that introduction the three big pillars that Atticus wants to see attorneys master to have long-term success in their practice, and I'm assuming that it's not just financial success but that's success in life and that balance as well. So help me understand those three pillars.

Valerie Peterson: 5:42

So for us, we really want attorneys focused on time management, but not just how they manage their time, but focused time, intentional time, to think about and focus on their practice, on their life, where they're going.

Valerie Peterson: 6:02

So, attorneys who work with us, we first start talking about what's your legacy going to be, you know, and then we work backwards and I can get more into that, but it's really around focused time management as opposed to just time management. Building a great team is another pillar, because you'll hear me say a couple of times, your revenue is really determined by your capacity, your capacity to bring in new clients, your capacity to handle those clients well and serve them well, and so if you don't have capacity, your revenue is going to stay flat period. And the last one is really client development, and that's being very clear about who your ideal client is and who your ideal client isn't, as opposed to allowing cash flow to dictate cases that you take, because that will erode morale on your team. That's actually going to hinder your cash flow as well. So you know, focus time, building a great team, client development those are really three foundational pillars that any successful law firm owner needs to embrace.

James Campbell: 7:11

And so, with Atticus, one of the things that you're doing is you're helping them understand the processes and the mindset necessary for time management, for client development, for those three pillars correct, Like you're helping them not just say these are the things you have to get taken care of, but here's how we go about it and get it done.

Valerie Peterson: 7:32

Absolutely. We're all about teaching strategic concepts. We are about providing tools to support the attorneys in those three major areas. We have a paper focuser that all of our clients get because we want them to have that focus time to sit down and think about what's going to make this a great week, and not just around the business, but always. You know personal life too, and it's so critical to start your day that way. What's going to make it a great day? It's going to make it a great week and it gets you focused on the most impactful actions you should be taking on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. So a big part of what we do is is teach those concepts but then provide the tools and resources and the accountability to use those.

James Campbell: 8:27

Yeah, I think that that last part that you mentioned about the accountability is one of the biggest pieces that's missing for those firms. When you're on an island and everything feels like it's dependent upon you, then you just stack burden upon burden and even though you may get some things marked off the list, the stack is still huge. So it's hard to feel like you've ever really gotten out from underneath that burden. So the kind of ability to recognize and give yourself the grace that, hey, I got the money-making things and the things for my family, I got those things on lock. Those are the priority and everything else can sort of wait. Right, it can be lower on the priority list.

Valerie Peterson: 9:10

Absolutely. But if you don't give yourself that focused time, away from a computer screen, away from your phone, to really get clear on what you're trying to achieve and the most important activities to help you get there, you're just going to be driven by a to-do list every single day. You're going to feel like a hamster in a wheel.

James Campbell: 9:35

Yeah, yeah, so it was so important to get off of that hamster wheel. I think this kind of leads into the next thing, which is most attorneys, or a lot of attorneys, think I just need more clients and that's the answer to their growth. I hear that a lot. As a marketer, I need more. Just more is the answer right, and I think that sometimes more is not always the answer. So what's the truth? What's the truth? That you wish more lawyers? Understood about building a great practice.

Valerie Peterson: 10:06

It really goes back to your capacity. Your capacity is going to drive your revenue and your ability to grow. Having more clients than you can handle, as I know you understand, will actually harm your practice. It's going to harm your reputation. You're not going to be able to get the work done timely. You're not going to be able to provide good client service. And so we do see a lot of true solos who are really scared about hiring a team because they say, well, I don't have the revenue, but you're not going to handle the revenue if you don't have the capacity. You don't have a team in place. So I do see attorneys making that mistake a lot, thinking that the problem is just they don't have enough clients. We can fix that, as you know. You can fix that, but you've got to have the ability to serve those clients, get the work out the door. You've got to have that great team behind you.

James Campbell: 11:23

They'll say the assumption is, I need more clients. But when we talk with them, the operations side is just it's not optimized. And so that's where a partner like Atticus becomes invaluable, because we're experts at driving the leads and really trying to set the framework of the attorney is the problem solver, and so the lead needs to come in with the expectation that the attorney is going to solve that problem. And so if we set that framework, then we sort of set the attorney up for that. But if they're in document creation mode, if they're in commodity mode and if they can't handle that business, then they get a bad review. That makes it more difficult to drive leads. So it really takes both of those things working together to have success. So it's important that we bring that up.

James Campbell: 12:13

Is that not every firm is ready to just scale revenue? It's going to take some insight into what role does everybody play and what is their desired outcome, what's the thing that they're supposed to be focused on and be intentional about. And that's where a firm like Atticus can come in and say okay, guys, let's plug up the holes, let's get the ship directed on the right path, let's get operations in place and now we're ready to turn up that marketing budget Now. We're ready to really bring the leads in into a system that everything runs on the way it's supposed to and there's capacity for the better life as well. You mentioned you said that law school teaches law but not how to run a law practice. What are the top two or three operational challenges that you see holding law firms back the most?

Valerie Peterson: 13:07

Law firms are often hesitant to hire. They again, they're looking at revenue coming in and going oh I can't afford to hire someone. And we say you can't afford not to. You simply cannot grow if you don't, if you, as the lawyer, don't have a team or at least one or two people number one to handle the clients coming in, handle them professionally, do a professional intake, make sure they're the right client and then to actually help the lawyer get that work done, you know, and out the door. So a hesitancy to hire is a big one. Not wanting to market, feeling oh, I feel so salesy I can't go out and meet people and ask for referrals.

Valerie Peterson: 13:55

Having that belief in their head definitely holds attorneys back and, believe it or not, a lot of law firms we work with aren't creating a budget, they're not forecasting, they're not keeping their thumb on where the revenue is coming from. They often look at marketing activities as an expense as opposed to an investment, and so data is the most important thing to help drive your decisions. But a lot of attorneys, if you ask them you know what was your gross revenue last month? They'll just look at you with a blank look. You know they're not really sure. It takes discipline to sit down and create a budget. It takes discipline to forecast. It takes discipline to track on a monthly basis or a weekly basis where you're spending your money and the ROI you're getting for it. So those are really some of those that hesitancy to hire, not wanting to market, believing it's sales and not wanting to do sales, and then not being really clear about their finances and creating a budget and making projections.

James Campbell: 15:05

Yeah, I think it's all about having that success mindset and not being afraid to invest in yourself, not being afraid to risk going for what you truly want, and I think that that's what it boils down to is a lot of attorneys just don't feel like they're worth it, and I think that's a mindset thing that I think, as coaches, we have to address with people that it's not just the assumption that they want to grow, but we have to get them past the assumption that they should right, that they have the capacity to do it and that it's okay for them to be in that position. You're right, because marketing and sales can be well. I'm the attorney and I think that one of the things we have to maybe bring to mind with folks, especially as AI and technology has really taken off I'm seeing financial advisors and you know every Tom Dick and Harry now can offer an estate plan through some sort of technology, right. So it can't just be about the fact that you're an attorney and you can draft an estate plan. There's something more to your practice and who you serve and the quality of work that you do, how you serve them, and that's what your operations. You have to have the right team so that you can serve the right people. All of this stuff flows and it's going to become more evident and more competitive as time goes along.

James Campbell: 16:31

So the longer firms, I think, put off some of these problems that they can see that they haven't hired. They know that they should, or they've thought that they should. They've had that sinking suspicion but they just haven't done it. If they don't move, they're just getting further behind, and so we have to create some of that sense of urgency, especially for the solo and more boutique law firms, to stand out and get things done right. Let's move on a little bit.

James Campbell: 16:59

So I'd like for you to share at least one client success story where fixing operations or adding a team member or working on team performance changed the trajectory of that firm. I've heard I'm reading a book right now called the Success Principles, and one of the things I read in there was one decision can change your life forever. So it's either a decision to not work on your operations or a decision to. Either one of those decisions can have a dramatic effect on your life. So help me understand where you've seen some of those decisions can have a dramatic effect on your life. So help me understand where you've seen some of those success stories.

Valerie Peterson: 17:35

Sure. So some of these stories of actual clients who have achieved success are you can find on our podcast as well, called the Great Practice, great Life podcast. But there is. You know, there was one attorney in particular who came to mind. She grew her law firm 400% over six years, grew revenue 400% over six years, and there was there wasn't just one thing, as I'm sure you can imagine, but she understood the importance of having a great team because, in order to to, she was kind of going into a new practice area and she needed to be seen as a thought leader, you know, in that area, which meant she had to be doing things outside the office to create her brand and to promote her brand. And so it was really on a couple of different prongs the operational side, making sure she had the right team in place, making sure she was delegating effectively, and then going out and being able to have speaking engagements to create content that positioned her as a thought leader.

Valerie Peterson: 18:47

And now she's committed to six weeks completely off vacation and we're not talking weekends, you know, we're talking completely off every single year, and that's one of the things that we challenge every attorney and their team that works with us is to take significant days off a year. We want them taking, you know, close to 175 days off a year, including weekends, because attorneys will try to sneak that in They'll work weekends. We don't want them doing that because in order to do that, you have to have a well-functioning firm where everyone understands their responsibility, everyone's rowing in the same direction, everyone's holding each other accountable. And those were the operational systems that this particular attorney put in place to get that 400% growth over a six-year period and to take off and not worry about the firm. Oftentimes the firm runs better when the law firm owner is taking some time off, but then you have that time to recharge, to think about the business. But sometimes it takes several days before you can even get to that point to relax enough to think about your business.

James Campbell: 20:01

Man, I'll tell you what. I love hearing those kinds of stories, because the growth isn't just about the revenue. If you're not factoring in time to spend with your family, to do the things that you enjoy, what's the point of working all this? What's the point of doing all this and earning all this money to just sit on a pile of it when you're old, like that's not what we want to do, right.

Valerie Peterson: 20:24

Old and by yourself because your kids aren't talking to you. Significant other is long gone. Yeah, and that is such a that is a paradigm shift that we are really trying to make with law firm owners. You do not have to sacrifice your personal life, the things that you like to do, in order to grow your business. We don't ever want to hear an attorney say, well, as soon as I get to X in revenue or X number of clients, then I'll do the things that I like to do. No, we don't want that. We push back hard against that.

James Campbell: 21:01

Yeah, act as if is one of the phrases I keep coming back. To Act as if you have the life. You can't set that arbitrary goal of 400% increase in revenue and then I'll take some time off, right, like that's not how it works. You act as if you already have that 400% revenue, you take the time off and your brain and your mind will bring the things to fruition to make that a reality for you consistently. It takes the intention, but you have to act as if it's already there for you. So I think it's again. We go back to some of that mindset work which has to be done to get yourself to the point where you're able to take action, you're able to actually make the change able to take action, you're able to actually make the change.

Valerie Peterson: 21:49

And it does start with being clear about what you want to achieve in your lifetime. We have all of our members start with what do you want your legacy to be? And I did this when I left elder council and came over to Atticus James. I couldn't do it the first time I sat down and I was like I have no idea. My identity was so wrapped up in my work prior to that. It took me, oh gosh, six to eight weeks of just kind of being out of that role with elder counsel to really sit down and think about what do I want as my legacy? And sometimes, when our attorneys come in and do that for the first time, they'll have that same experience because everything's wrapped up in their business. So we force them out of that and say no, no, no, no. What do you want for your legacy? And then we work back All right to get there.

Valerie Peterson: 22:41

What has to happen in the next 10 years? What has to happen in the next three years? One year, 90 days, all with that legacy in mind, and it can be business and personal. Your legacy is your legacy, whatever you want that to be, but that's what we're driving toward and that's why we have focused time every day to have the most impactful actions for that day. Because we're driving toward that legacy and we have people revisit it. Because your legacy can change. You know, I've gone through some pretty significant life changes in the last few months and so I'm going to sit down and redo it because you know, things change in your life. It's not irrevocable. It's something that you want to stay anchored to and make sure it's still what you're living for, what you want you know as your legacy.

James Campbell: 23:32

Yeah, I think it's. I find it a bit ironic that our clients, these estate and elder law attorneys they spend their careers protecting and planning for the legacy of their clients, and then how much time did they spend thinking about their own? You know, the cobbler's children wear no shoes, correct, you know? So that's a great point that we have to bring that to the forefront of our minds for our clients, and it's not just about growing revenue and getting new clients in the door or what that number is at the end of the year. Let's talk a little bit about marketing. How do you see great operations and great marketing working together to accelerate a firm's growth? How do those two sort of go hand-to-hand in your mind?

Valerie Peterson: 24:18

Some law firm owners sometimes overlook the fact that a great team while, yes, they can get the work done, they can serve clients they can also provide great marketing support. You know, we have one member in particular who's on my mind around marketing because he created a game for his team, kind of a competition, where if they did certain things like they took someone to lunch they could earn points. And those who weren't as excited about having to, you know, go to a meeting or go to a lunch, they could write an article about something that they write and they could earn points. And so it's like a friendly competition among the law firm. But it's also helping the law firm, you know, get more referrals or have clients making referrals, which is the, you know, the Holy grail, obviously, for a law firm.

Valerie Peterson: 25:14

And then, you know, whoever has the most points gets a great you know prize at the end of you know, the month, a quarter. However, you want to do it, and I thought that was really really brilliant, because your team will often come up with ideas that you maybe would not have thought of, that they can, they can support you, you know. So that was just one example of kind of a fun way that operations that your team you know can contribute to marketing in a marketing in a really meaningful way. But the other piece to that is a well-functioning team gives that law firm owner the space to get out of the office. If that's what's really important to meet with referral sources, or maybe they love to write, great, that gives them the space to write because the team is handling, you know, everything else and the team is ready to take those new clients on that the law firm owner is able to go out and generate.

James Campbell: 26:18

So I think what you're trying to say and what I'm hearing in my mind is intentionality of the resources at your disposal. So you have your team available, and who knows your client base? Who knows your prospects and your referral partners better than the people that are engaging with them on a daily basis, as it is. So, whether you gamify it or however you want to go about it, but I think that the point here is intentionality around growth for your firm, recognizing that there's sort of low-hanging fruit everywhere. Where can you engage your team? Where can you find those opportunities? And, just to be intentional about that, I love the fact that if you don't have a team, hard to get them engaged with the process.

Valerie Peterson: 27:03

Hard to find that time to go out and find new clients or do what James is asking them to do in the marketing space if you don't have a team.

James Campbell: 27:13

How important is it for attorneys to position themselves as the thought leader or as the authority and how does that impact client trust and profitability? So I know you talk about getting your team set up so that you can have the stellar operations and grow your reputation. How does that position them? How does being positioned as the authority with that sort of reputation help the client development?

Valerie Peterson: 27:40

I think it helps in many ways If you are recognized as the thought leader in your practice area and in your geographical area. That makes it far easier for referral sources to say this I read every article they send out or every video they record, or maybe the attorney has a podcast that they're using to promote themselves as a thought leader, but it really does help your referral sources sell you in advance and clients the same thing. If your clients know that you're the go-to person in your area for whatever your practice area is whether it's estate planning, elder law, real estate, whatever that is then they're really clear too. It doesn't have to be the same for every person, but it's really being clear about what you do, how well you know your area of law, and you know I also wouldn't be afraid to share you know personal stories as well, because people want to get to know you on a personal level in addition to understanding how much you know about your area of law.

James Campbell: 29:11

Yeah, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. One of those. I love that saying and I think that's going to be more important, especially as I look at things, because I see things through the lens of technology. So I see the enc the lens of technology. So I see the encroachment of AI, I see the encroachment of all these other providers that are trying to creep into the marketplace.

James Campbell: 29:34

Well, what's going to set the estate planning attorney apart is what you just mentioned. It's that personal touch. It's the fact that people buy from people they trust. People trust people they like, and people like people like themselves. So how do you connect on a personal level with your clientele at the point where they trust you with their legacy? And it's not just the fact that you can sell a cool document, the red one, off the shelf. That's not going to cut it. It's going to be that relationship that you have with those clients.

James Campbell: 30:07

One of the things our listeners need to kind of take away from this whole conversation is that you can't scale chaos. So it doesn't matter how much traffic you have, how many leads you generate, if you're buried in overwhelm, you're not going to be able to scale or grow, so I love your emphasis on protecting the owner's mindset and life and intention about how they move forward. You've led high-performing teams across multiple organizations, so let's talk a little bit about leadership. As we get close to wrapping up here. What are the topics I want to know from your experience? I'm looking for something for me to apply now. Okay, so our leaders, our listeners, can apply some of this too, but I want to learn from you as well. So what are some of the top leadership habits that help law firm owners or business owners entrepreneurs be inspired to retain and attract great staff? Be inspired to retain and attract great staff.

Valerie Peterson: 31:07

Well, first of all, let me premise this with I've made a lot of mistakes over the years and, having been at this for you know, leading companies for 20 years and being in the legal industry for gosh almost 30 now I've made a lot of mistakes so I can tell you what not to do. But some of the things that work really well are setting clear expectations of your team. A lot of times attorneys don't get clear at the hiring time really what they need. They fail to onboard properly and set a new team member up for success, and so that can really hurt the team altogether. So clear expectations is one thing, Providing immediate constructive feedback when necessary.

Valerie Peterson: 32:01

So you start with expectations. If something is not working, letting the team member know immediately hey, this isn't working and this is why, not making them wrong, but just saying these activities or these behaviors aren't working. They're not pushing us forward to what we're all trying to accomplish as a team. And then I think it's really critical to practice what you are teaching or to model the behavior that you expect from the other people on your team. If you don't, then suddenly oh well, val doesn't do it, so why should I be expected to show up on time for work, to be on time for client appointments.

Valerie Peterson: 32:48

So I think it's so critical to practice what you teach, model the behavior that you want to see, but it all starts with being really clear about expectations. I think it's also important to share openly with the team this is what we as a law firm are trying to accomplish and why these are the types of clients we want to attract. These are the types of clients that we are not interested in and empower the team to be able to come to the law firm owner or the leading attorney and say, hey, this person cursed at us on the phone, you know, and having the authority, the empowerment, to say, hey, this isn't good, you know, for our law firm, this is not the ideal client. So, empowerment, immediate feedback, clear expectations, and then you know again, practicing that and modeling the behavior you want to see from the team.

James Campbell: 33:49

That's great advice. Maybe easier said than done with the modeling stuff, right?

Valerie Peterson: 33:56

We're still human.

James Campbell: 33:57

Yeah, give ourselves a little bit more grace than we. Maybe we should. Maybe we should give ourselves a little bit more grace, but yes, we have to model that behavior. Tell me a little bit about the attorneys who are feeling stuck or feeling just overwhelmed within their practice.

Valerie Peterson: 34:14

Yeah. So this is going to sound counterintuitive, but the first thing that we ask those burned out, stressed out attorneys to do is to slow down in order to speed up. And what we mean by that is slow down, get out, get off of that hamster wheel and get some focused time, some focused time to think about all right, what is it that you're trying to achieve and why. And then that allows you to figure out okay, where am I off track around that? Maybe I'm just running through a to-do list every day or being reactive to my email, because you feel like that's the only thing you can do.

Valerie Peterson: 34:58

So we really encourage the attorney slow down, take some focused time. I always tell people, the one time of day you have complete control over is your morning, the time that you wake up. So if you need to wake up 10 minutes early to have that focused time to think about your practice, to work on your practice and to figure out, all right, what are the three most impactful actions I can take today that are going to move me forward? Nobody can tell me they can't wake up 10 minutes early, you know. So take back your morning, slow down, and that's going to allow you to then speed up and start seeing some growth in your firm.

James Campbell: 35:37

I love it because when we feel that overwhelm, when we feel like things are closing in on us, that's not the time to drink more caffeine and get more. You know, sleep less and right, like to push yourself into further burnout. I love that. You said slow down to speed up. I love that. So again. So for attorneys who feel stuck and they feel plateaued where should they go to get sort of out of that drowning feeling? How should they engage with Atticus to start fixing some of these issues?

Valerie Peterson: 36:27

What somebody needs. We've got a lot of resources on our website, which is AtticusAdvantagecom Recordings of the podcast just if someone wants to understand a little bit more about what we do. But we can help you one-on-one through. You know, whether it's a project, you need a firm retreat because you need to get your team together. We also have group programs as well, where you can actually accelerate your learning because you're sitting with a group of your peers four times a year. So you're not just learning from the person in the front of the room. You're learning from colleagues who are trying for the same thing that you are, who are playing for a great practice and a great life. So there's a lot of different ways that we can support attorneys. We first want to make sure we understand where is the problem right now? Where are you feeling that stress, that burnout? So we want to help them diagnose it first and then move on a path forward right away.

James Campbell: 37:21

Yeah. So for the listeners out there, I would just encourage you to reach out, especially if you're feeling some of these things. It's worth the conversation, you are worth being in a position to have this fixed. It's okay for you to step out and grow, but it's going to take some intention. It's going to take some new thoughts about yourself and your practice and what's possible. So reach out to Atticus at AtticusAdvantagecom. Go through their podcast.

James Campbell: 37:50

That's one of the reasons I invited Valerie onto the Marketing Lawcast. I heard her speaking on their podcast and thought I need to have my listeners who are thinking about marketing and are concerned about growth recognize that you can't scale chaos. If you're having chaos within your practice, you're going to have to get that squared away, and a great partner would be to turn to Valerie and her team and the members within that organization. I have a number of clients who have been through the Atticus program or are currently in it, and they're the top-notch attorneys. So join and surround yourself with peers who can elevate you and that you can learn from and maybe you can contribute to their success as well. Anything else to close up here, Valerie, before I close this out.

Valerie Peterson: 38:38

Just to say thank you. I can tell how much you care about the attorneys you work with and that's why it's just an honor to be here. We at Atticus have the exact same approach. We care about every lawyer, their team, their loved ones, and we would love to work with anyone listening.

James Campbell: 38:58

Yeah, I love it. Thank you, Valerie, so much for the time today, for the contribution to the community to help them understand that it's not just about getting new leads in. It's not always the end-all, be-all solution to every problem. It's just more. We have to look at what's going on within the practice. Where can we build that scalability? Where can we recruit some of those resources that are within our team to help us have a thriving practice in a life that we love? So, Valerie, thank you so much for your time today and I look forward to many more conversations in the future.

Valerie Peterson: 39:32

Thank you.

Announcer: 39:34

That's a wrap on this edition of the Marketing Lawcast. Thanks for joining us Head over to imsrockscom. If you're ready to skyrocket your firm's marketing, don't hesitate to book a free strategy call with our team right on our website. Here's to your success.