Introduction to Marketing Law Cast

Announcer 0:00

You're tuned into the Marketing Law Cast with James Campbell . Brace yourselves for game-changing digital marketing tips and exclusive interviews with industry gurus and top-tier attorneys , smashing the six and seven-figure barrier . It's time to drive your practice to success . Welcome to the Marketing Law Cast .

James Campbell 0:16

So when you had this transition , thomas , from litigator to estate planning , what were some of the biggest struggles that you faced in building the estate planning practice ? What were some of the times where that you felt like that was the biggest struggle , and what were those struggles ?

Thomas Limón 0:33

First off , education . You're a dyed-in-the-wool litigator . You know trial law Coming into a transactional setting . I had a teaspoon worth of it in law school . You study a little bit for it on the law for the bar exam , and then you quickly forget about it . You know , perhaps maybe there's the errant will or two that maybe you do for family members , but by no means expert in that area of law .

Thomas Limón 1:04

So , coming up to speed with the educational component to ensure that I'm behaving by the rules of ethics to either be competent or become competent within a reasonable amount of time exceedingly important . I want to do a good job and I want to be competent in what I do . I want to do a good job and I want to be competent in what I do . And so I just went head first into reading everything that I can get my hands on and honestly , just to recalibrate myself to the language , I literally picked up a estate planning for dummies book and I just thumbed through it just to remind myself of the terminology for Dummies book . And I just thumbed through it just to remind myself of the terminology . And then I obviously , you know , you go deeper and you pick up some literature from the ABA and from the general practice section to learn some of the basics of estate planning . But geez , when you get into estate planning , there are a lot of programs out there that gear themselves towards people who are looking to transition , and if you're not careful you can spend a lot of money on that portion of retooling yourself into an estate planner , and so you have to be really careful and judicious about which sources you pick up .

Thomas Limón 2:18

But I would say the number one thing was overcoming the competency hurdle . Once you've overcome the competency hurdle , then you start talking about well , what are some of the the , the struggles of transitioning to an estate planning in terms of , like business , right , Uh , because you're not just a lawyer but you're also a small business owner . Um , that requires a change of mindset . Um , owner , that requires a change of mindset , and I would say that sort of the anxiety of making sure that business was coming in the door . That was number one , in fact , when we originally had our first several meetings together , james , I expressed a lot of anxiety about making sure that I had clients and the clients will come and it might take some patience .

Thomas Limón 3:04

And I expressed a lot of anxiety about making sure that I had clients , and the clients will come , and it might take some patience and it might take a little bit of time , but one of the things that one should keep in mind is that you get back from the practice what you invest into it , and that's both in terms of time and of money , too right . Your labor can only get you so far . You also need to be intelligent and judicious in sourcing the right , for instance , media company to help you obtain clients , and so at some point , you have to take a little bit of a leap of faith . You have to , um , open the palm right , not so much a clenched , clenched fist , but an open hand , in order to receive it . Um , and that was , uh , a challenge for me at first , because it takes a takes a bit of trust .

James Campbell 4:02

Yeah , but you've had a um , had an amazing year , so the last 12 months have been , in your own words , highly successful . What was that moment where you felt like you finally made it as an estate planning attorney , where you felt like , ok , everybody knows that I do this now and this is my brand and I'm consistent . Everybody knows that I do this now and this is my brand and I'm consistent . What was that moment where you sort of had that oh my gosh , I've done it . What was that moment for you ?

Thomas Limón 4:31

Well , when you start getting referrals from other lawyers , that's a good feeling . It's acknowledgement by the other members of the bar that they take you seriously and they entrust to you their own family or their own clients , that's a big one . When those word-of-mouth referrals started coming in , that felt good . But interestingly enough geez , what was it ? Maybe two weeks ago , my law partner and I we meet up on Fridays to work on the practice . There's working in the practice and then there's working on the practice , and so much of the time that you're so busy meeting with clients , doing consultations , drafting , doing all the legal practitioner work that you also kind of forget or put into the side burner actually working on the business , growing your business . And so we've made it a habit to meet on Fridays . We meet at a coffee shop in a town closely in proximity to Las Cruces called Mesilla , beautiful place , and we meet at the coffee shop . And I got up at like 9 o'clock . I slow rolled the morning with a cup of coffee and just kind of sitting on the couch with my dog and my wife , and now it's about 9.30 in the morning and I make my way over to the coffee shop . Beautiful day , sun shining , weather's fantastic and I have arranged my calendar so that the Fridays are blocked off to work on the business , and so I'm feeling really good about myself . I've done the work for the week and we can begin to plan for the next week .

Thomas Limón 6:09

Recap this week and I'm sitting there with a cup of coffee and my law partner and we actually begin to joke because we're talking about dress code for both us and for the staff that we're hiring , and we're talking about cufflinks . We're going to get like these French cuffs on our shirts . And my law partner said these words exactly you know , we've made it when we have our logo on our cufflinks . And his wife didn't know anything about this conversation but , despite not knowing anything , like serendipitously , like a week later , she had ordered away for cufflinks with our logo on them and we're really proud of the logo .

Thomas Limón 6:57

The logo is really cool . It's got this crest with a lion in it . It looks really good . A lion in it , it looks really good . And so my law partner presents me with what his wife had given him , which was a little card that said you know , we've made it and hopefully we have a long way to go , or something like that . And so it's funny that you say that because or you asked me that because , um , we know we've made it when we have logos on our cuff links , and so now I have logos on my cuff links , so I think that's just positive . Uh , yeah , that's it right there .

James Campbell 7:37

Yeah , they can send you the certificate now . Right , right , I love it . Uh , that's a cool story and um , and what a fun way to sort of commemorate that moment of , like gosh , we're actually doing this thing . We are so before working with IMS , and I know you kind of started your estate planning practice roughly around the same time . But what were the things your biggest concerns as it related to marketing , like what was the primary , like I don't know , I want to say motivator , but the thing that was kind of eating at you about marketing in general ?

Thomas Limón 8:15

Well , you know I've tried . This is my second run at going into private practice . The first time I opened up a door practice and you want to talk about a miserable experience . Open up a door practice . The first time I opened up a door practice and you want to talk about a miserable experience . Open up a door practice .

Thomas Limón 8:26

And for those who don't know what a door practice is , a door practice is , your practice is anything that walks in the door and for most people that ends up being criminal defense and family law , divorce and custody cases , and so I was really unhappy doing that . And you don't really have to try very hard , you just have to hang a shingle , meet with some lawyers , let your name get out there , especially in this community , that you're taking those kinds of cases , and then all of a sudden , business just happens and then you're up to your ears and in litigation and you're not being judicious about the kind of cases that you're taking , but you're making money , but you really become captive to your own practice . This time around I wanted to do things more intentionally different , but how do you do that ? So you have a couple of things , and this is something that you had mentioned previously , which is you have time and you have money , and at first you don't have a ton of money , right , Because you're just beginning your practice . You don't have any capital reserves set aside to dedicate towards marketing , and the money that you do have is scarce and you're really protective over it . And so you know I had elbow grease to put in .

Thomas Limón 9:40

So what do you do to put in the elbow grease ? You meet with clients . You're hungry for those Google reviews . I can't underestimate how important Google reviews are , and no matter how you service the client maybe it was just a consultation they decided that the answer was yes , I want your services , but not now . Okay , Well , does the consultation , does the information that I just provided you , the food for thought warrant a Google review ? And most oftentimes , the people are going to want to help you out and they're going to say yes , and so you collect that Google review . So that's the elbow grease part of it . Right , Making sure that you're on your game to get those reviews critically important .

Thomas Limón 10:19

But then also from the money perspective , you have to let the belt buckle go a little bit . You have to spend some money on advertising because ultimately it's an investment , and it's an investment in yourself . If you're going to be investing in anything , invest in your business . Invest in yourself , be confident , and it's nerve-wracking to let go with some money . I have tried some marketing things in the past . Not all marketing companies are built equally . Not all lawyers are built equally right . There's a bandwidth of competency and a bandwidth of services provided and quality of services provided . And so becoming comfortable with the IMS way , taking direction , having enough humility to know that IMS has a program , it has really good information , it has good coaching and to trust in the process . So just trusting in the process and the trial lawyers are combative . We're kind of , maybe a little bit paranoid by nature , and so you know , but knowing that you're not the enemy , right , You're not the enemy .

James Campbell 11:41

You're there to help . What was the ? You've been working together for about a year now , so what can you say is the biggest impact that IMS has had on the practice ? Like , impactfully , where's the impact come from us ? Is it in the lead flow ? Go ahead .

Thomas Limón 12:00

Yeah , leadflow , seo , hugely important . Google , google , google , google . I keep coming back to Google because people know Google . It's like the most used search engine , right ? And sometimes people don't even really start to click on the links . What they're doing is they're just kind of surveying Google Maps .

Transitioning from Litigation to Estate Planning

Thomas Limón 12:19

It will show up on the right-hand side of the screen . They're going to see people at the top and people at the bottom . They're going to be looking at the five-star reviews or 4.8-star reviews or 4.5-star reviews , and the higher you're up there on the Google ratings in terms of reviews , the more clients you're going to get .

Thomas Limón 12:37

People will just eyeball it superficially , see your number , click on it and then call , and so driving up the internet traffic has been hugely , hugely important . You know before maybe my phone would ring once or twice a week . Now you know I've been looking at my phone . It's off to the side here , it's on silent , but I've already gotten two phone calls . You know , during the process of having this podcast that we're on and I'm going to have to get back to them and give them a call back . But now this thing just rings off the hook and I ask people where they find us and invariably they say , well , we just did a Google search , so that's huge .

Thomas Limón 13:18

But also just listening to you in the conversations that we've had , giving us examples about how to approach people in a sales capacity , and it seems awkward to talk about legal services as something that requires sales , but what is sales ? Something that requires sales , but what is sales . And one of the things that you helped me to do was and therefore IMS , was to not think of sales as like trying to sell the proverbial catch-up popsicle to the lady in white gloves , but really you're there to help them to solve a problem and get them to realize the services that you provide and the value that you have to bring to the table and that they need it , and not thinking of yourself as kind of like this huckster or salesperson of forms or something that someone doesn't need . I'm not trying to sell them some new Tupperware when the Tupperware that they have is perfectly fine , but I'm really trying to provide them with protection for their children and gosh , that's really important , right ? That's hugely important .

Thomas Limón 14:33

You can make a big impact on somebody's life , someone's life , by providing the services that I have to provide to them . I think it's vitally important and I want them to know it , changing that mindset . I can't tell you how helpful that was , and to listen to you and listen to your coaching and then apply , that has helped me a great deal . Because the phone can ring , but then what do you do ?

James Campbell 14:58

once you answer it Right , you've got to close the deal right .

James Campbell 15:02

Yeah , I love that and I think , thomas just kind of to piggyback on that , one of the things that makes the marketing work so well is one yes , the Google , the ranking on Google . But the way that you rank on Google is recognizing what people are searching for , and people look for information related to their own personal problems . So if you understand what those issues are , so , for example , your website , copy your blog , copy this . The information that you're putting out there is problem centric , like that's what you're focused on . So in the marketing , you're not selling trusts so that when people call you on the phone , they're asking you about hey , how can I solve this issue ?

James Campbell 15:42

And you , with the sales training and your persona and your approach to helping people , it leads right into that . It's not about selling them a trust , right ? It's not even about hey , let's just avoid probate . It's about how does this affect your family ? Let's find the right solution for you . In doing so , you become a little bit more bespoke as well , so less commoditized , and therefore you're able to charge a higher fee . So talk to me about your fees and revenue . How has this last year affected your fees and revenue ? Have you seen the growth ? And kind of explain that a little bit or describe it for us a little bit , that growth that you've seen .

Thomas Limón 16:25

Sure , growth has been phenomenal Growth in terms of the numbers of clients . But you also don't want to get in the habit of trying to devolve to the lowest common denominator , right , it's not a race to the gutter . You don't want to make it that and you don't want to just overwhelm , um , your , your revenue with , uh , with , numerous clients . What you want are are good , high quality , well , well-paying clients , because you have a confidence in the services that you provide , um , so , so , yes , the number numbers of clients have gone up , but also the fees that we command have also increased over time , also because that's a really important component . And you know , geez , sometimes I just feel that and maybe you can even speak to this better but , geez , like , if you undervalue yourself , what you're doing is you're putting a price tag on yourself and that is a reflection of the value that you provide , right ? And if you're constantly underselling yourself , um , then what you're communicating to your clientele or potential clients is that you know , in the end of the day you'll fold like a cheap suit .

Thomas Limón 17:36

You're you , you really don't have a lot to provide . You're't have a lot to provide . You're a glorified form , fill or outer person and there's nothing really bespoke about anything that you do and really , then , you're just competing with artificial intelligence and some of those companies out there that provide you forms and walk you through forms online , and that's not what you want to be . You don't want to be competing with those companies . What you want to be is a standalone legal practitioner that brings additional value to the table . So , yeah , I mean it's been a fantastic year , both in quantity and in quality of clients too .

James Campbell 18:23

I love that . And when you to that kind of drive home that point you mentioned your reviews earlier and as I was going through and I was reading some of your reviews , the one thing I noticed is that people don't write things like great product , fair price , right . They write things like Thomas helped me so much with my family and made sure that my mom was taken care of and I now have . You know , they they kind of pour out their heart in their reviews . It's not about the , the product , it's about the relationship . And so when you're , when your marketing presents you in that way , and then you follow through with that in this , in this quote unquote sales room , where you're solving problems , that's where things really fall into place . And when you put the sweat equity in and recognize the value of your google reviews , like asking for those and having the , the tools and automations in place to generate those consistently so don't things don't fall through the cracks , you know , like putting those things in place and being intentional with your elbow grease about making sure that stuff is , when you know that that's what drives the business , when that's where the lion's share is coming from . You put that work in to get it . That makes a huge difference and I'm really proud of you , by the way , for making that transition .

James Campbell 19:39

I love . That's why I wanted to have the interview with you is I've , I love your story and I love the challenges that you faced along the way . One of the things I thought was interesting is that you mentioned earlier in the podcast your law partner , and I know when we first started off , it was you and your wife helping you out , but now you have this partner . Explain to us how that came about and how you had the confidence to bring him on and how that how's that shake out for you with your , with your , with your law partner .

Thomas Limón 20:06

Well , my law partner one , Sal Guardiola . He's fantastic , great guy , hard worker , smart and a huge heart Right , and so he and he wants to help , and so those qualities really amplify and speak to the things that you find that are important , which is a desire to help others to solve problems , and put the focus really on what your focus should be , which is providing good outcomes for your clients and making them feel comfortable and making them feel that you've solved problems on their behalf as a trusted counselor , advisor , for them and for their family . And Sal is fantastic . He spends extra time on the 10-minute phone calls . Oftentimes they extend to maybe 10 or 15 or maybe even 20 minutes , but gosh , he gets the people in the door and he makes them feel valued and welcomed . But gosh , he gets the people in the door and he makes them feel valued and welcomed In terms of bringing him on .

Thomas Limón 21:04

We met at the DA's office . We were both deputy prosecutors in New Mexico . A deputy is , you know , one step below like chief deputy of the DA , and so we handled really high-profile crimes together . We did trials together and we talked every once in a while . You know what , what ? What might it be like to be in practice together , you know , and we kind of would would daydream a little bit about going into practice together . I was the first to jump ship to start the practice and I was thinking about Sal the whole time , thinking it might be nice to have him come on board . And so I reached out and I wanted to talk to him about the prospects of doing that , him leaving the DA's office . He had just had a baby and he had paternity leave . The state gives paternity leave in New Mexico , so he's out on paternity leave , time on his hands to think and to contemplate his future at the DA's office . He's got three kids now . Does he want to spend the next several years sleeping three , four hours a night and working like a dog prosecuting these high-profile crimes ? And so we had a conversation . He asked me a really critical question I think this speaks to the question that you asked me which was if I come on board , how is that ? How am I in a better position than just me going out on private practice together ? And my answer to that was the parts would be greater than than the sum Right , which is , in a sense , we're we're multiplicative . You know , three plus three is six , but three times three is nine . And are we ? Are we more together than the sum of our parts ? And I thought absolutely yes , and I've seen that in trial and it's borne a lot of fruit when we've been out in private practice together . That us , together , the synergy that we have , is more than what each of us singularly could bring to the table on our own . And that should be true for any decision that I think you make in business .

Thomas Limón 23:11

We're looking to acquire staff . Now We've got virtual staff , we're going to get an in-person staff and we're growing our network of attorneys in other states . And so the question when we do these kinds of things are in doing so , what are we bringing to the bottom line in terms of acquiring an asset for the business ? Are we just bringing in somebody who's going to make their salary back ? Well , if that's what you're doing , then… why Right that ? In order to acquire somebody or anything , whether it's staff or a new printer or a computer ? The question is what does that do for the bottom line ? Does it increase it ? Or are you just using it as convenience , or what is that ? What does that bring to the table ? And um , for Sal , what he brought to the table was a whole lot and um I wouldn't be in the position that I'd be in if I didn't have him working alongside me .

James Campbell 24:14

I love that , um , thomas and and just my conversation with him , Uh , I was like , yeah , I see I can see why you wanted him on your team and why you you say the synergy cause it's like the energy that you both bring , like it's maximized when you're together . So I love the calls that we had with the three of us were on there . So I see that what's sort of the next step for your , what's the next phase or the next goal for your law firm ? What do you sort of have in your mind's eye of the next phase ?

Thomas Limón 24:48

We have some pretty exciting things in the pipeline .

Thomas Limón 24:52

One of the things that we're focusing on is bringing in in-person staff to have highly competent , highly trained staff that can do some more client interface at kind of a higher level also to take the burden off of some of the sales calls , perhaps , and also meeting with clients , collecting information , doing intake and then perhaps even at some point helping out with the signings , either directing them or being a critical component of signings .

Thomas Limón 25:27

We're more in line with the practice of law , which is doing design sessions for our clients to design out their trust or their estate plan , to do the drafting , especially in some of the more bespoke clients that we have that are really idiosyncratic , very unique situations . It would free us up to do more of that and less of the other things that don't necessarily require an attorney . In terms of growth and expansion , we're trying to be a little more virtual reach out to northern New Mexico , so beyond our immediate geographical area , we have some people who are interested in working for us in other states . So branching out to states like Utah , wisconsin , arizona , texas , those are options that are very much on the table and , just as a bit of a teaser , we're up to some really exciting stuff involving trust administration and blockchain and trust automation . So I won't get too deeply into that , but it's well in the works and we're moving full steam ahead with some of that stuff and that's going to be really exciting .

James Campbell 26:48

I love that . I love how you can still even though your practice is still new , for lack of a better word you know a couple of years old now at this point , almost even not even a couple of years old but you're still working on ways of expanding , like you're seeing a vision for the firm that goes beyond just what you can provide in your lone local self for your own . Like how can you provide this service and expand your reach and solve problems for people and kind of build that brand on a larger scale . And I love that drive . I love that that you can bring in a new offering of trust , admin and ways to sort of advance that with technology you know , and leverage some of the new technology that's coming out . This is the way that the estate planning attorney is going to grow and stay relevant in the future

Overcoming the Competency Hurdle

James Campbell 27:38

. Right is leveraging the technology , not being afraid of it . But if you're only selling documents , if you're only commoditizing and you're not focused on the relationship , then people may as well go to a robot .

Thomas Limón 27:50

Right , they may as well . Yeah , I can't . I can't , you know . Sorry to cut you off , but I get so excited when I when I think about this topic . You know , technology is not something to be afraid of . Technology is something to be really excited about and , as an estate planner , knowing what I bring to the table and knowing the relational aspect , technology is going to only make us even more powerful , I think , and I'm really excited about the additional help that I can bring to a lot of clients the efficiency , the ease . I'm fired up . I'm really excited about our future and you know , we're not just robots , we're more than that . Now we might use a robot to help us advance our practice , but I'm not worried about being replaced by one .

James Campbell 28:39

Yeah , I love it . We have to have that outlook of possibilities and stay confident . That's when good things come our way . Thomas , if you could give advice to another attorney maybe transitioning from litigation to estate planning , or even maybe just starting their estate planning practice what advice would you give them ? What would be some of the bits of wisdom to give them ?

Thomas Limón 29:00

Sure , sure , first , be humble . Right , you're going out into practice , you're , you're , you're in a new area of law and , uh , there's people out there that want to help . Sure , there are some people that want to take advantage , but if you're going to be working with IMS , uh , be humble , be willing to accept coaching and , um , be ready to put in some elbow grease , be ready , be ready to put in the work . It's not going to come to you , um , overnight , it's not going to come to you immediately , but , like with any good thing in life that's worth doing , uh , the more you work at it , the more rewarding it's going to be . Um , so , except coaching , be humble , work hard and good things will happen .

James Campbell 29:48

That's great advice . What would you say to other estate planning attorneys who are maybe on the fence about working with IMS or they're considering IMS ? What would you say to sort of push them over the hump ?

Thomas Limón 30:00

Sure , they're on your side . They want to help . Their success is predicated on your success . They don't exist as a company unless you're doing well and they have a service to provide . They want to help you to advance and to achieve your goals , and you have to unclench the fest in order to be able to receive the reward in exchange , and so make room in your budget , invest in yourself , invest in your business , be confident while also being humble at the same time . James is a great coach . He's going to help you out and be willing to be coachable and be flexible and just receive the information . It's a journey , and so you know IMS has been great to me lots of good follow up , and I recommend .

James Campbell 31:01

Thomas , thank you , man . Thank you for that short testimonial there , but thank you for taking time . Man , Thank you for that short testimonial there , but thank you for taking time . I know you had sales calls coming through while we were recording the podcast , so you know , obviously the marketing is working for you , your brand is built up , you've , you've put the work in and built yourself up in your authority , both online and in the community , to create a really amazing practice , and I'm excited for what you have in the future . Any closing thoughts before we close out today , thomas ?

Thomas Limón 31:31

Thank you A lot of great gratitude for having me on today and I look forward to some potential colleagues in the estate planning practice coming real soon .

James Campbell 31:41

Yeah , very good . Thomas , thanks a lot for today . We appreciate it , and that'll conclude this episode of the Marketing Lawcast .

Announcer 31:48

That's a wrap on this edition of the Marketing Lawcast . Thanks for joining us . Head over to imsrockscom for more growth-focused insights . If you're ready to skyrocket your firm's marketing , don't hesitate to book a free strategy call with our team right on our website . Here's to your success . See you next time .